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      Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

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      molbys belly
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5175: Sep 14, 2017 03:07:51 pm
      Captain of lfc my balls , Jordan side foot Henderson
      Bench at best
      chats
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5176: Sep 14, 2017 03:09:27 pm
      Even his biggest supporters must admit he's really struggling right now.
      molbys belly
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5177: Sep 14, 2017 03:16:25 pm
      Never saw a more awkward footballer , always side of the foot EASY passes, shooting always with a side foot , clearing the ball , side foot . Not to mention his heading it's shocking
      He world best player for point fingers at other players he just run around lot no skill or even get goals from midfield he sh*t
      I be support Liverpool all my life see players like Henderson be playing for these great club and captain very sad days he should be on as sub not playing
      « Last Edit: Sep 15, 2017 02:41:26 pm by MsGerrard, Reason: No need to have 3 seperate posts really !! »
      Scotia
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5178: Sep 14, 2017 04:22:08 pm
      The only one I saw out of position and half heartedly jogging was Hendo in that clip.

      Let's not kid ourself he's not a DM.

      It's because Can is so far out. Look closer mate - he's lolloping back like an asthmatic pit pony.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5179: Sep 14, 2017 04:25:49 pm
      Even his biggest supporters must admit he's really struggling right now.
      Henderson is out of his depth, it was not as clear before to some. One game in champions league has shown how clear it is. Henderson should be playing his football around 8-15th in PL. Burnley, Watford or Huddersfield.. etc
      sore monad
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5180: Sep 14, 2017 05:41:04 pm
      Never quite get the hostility to Hendo. He is the best of our midfield 3.

      The touch on his return pass in the one two with Moreno for our first goal was beautiful. Yes he was napping for the throw in for their goal, but so was everybody else. No excuse, but why single him out in particular?

      Think a lot of the problem people have with him is that he's captain. We have a lack of leaders in the team, and cos Hendo is the captain he cops a lot of flak for the lack of leadership.

      I agree that he is definitely not not up there with the great captains we have had, either in terms of leadership or in terms of his quality as a player ( and obviously the fact he is following Stevie G really highlights that). But clearly Jürgen thinks ( like BR did) that of all the players in our squad, Hendo has better leadership qualities than anybody else. So the fact he is captain is more of an indictment of the rest of the squad, in that respect, than it is of Henderson.

      As for whether he can play DM. Well, for a start I'm not sure Jürgen really plays a DM. He likes 2 or 3 all round CMs who are all supposed to press pretty high, and also cover for each other and tuck in if the other(s) goes bombing forward ( which they all basically have a licence to do). He's usually the central 1 of the 3, so yeah maybe a little bit more defensive duties than the other 2, but he still isn't really supposed to be an out an out DM.

      I think there is an ongoing question as to whether our defensive frailties are more down a lack of protection from our midfield, or sh*t defending from our defenders. I basically plump for the second one as being the main problem. Yes, sometimes our midfield doesn't protect well enough, but I think mainly that is down to the high press Jürgen likes to play. Our CMs go hunt the ball. Mostly they actually do it quite well. But when the opposition get past them ( often late in games, I think, when we start to tire), then the back 4 can be a bit exposed. I think this is a price that Jürgen is prepared to pay.

      Obviously there are also just poor moments too - last night's throw in being a case in point - but I think these are relatively rare from Hendo, certainly compared with the steady stream of brain farts that we have come to expect from Moreno and Lovren.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5181: Sep 14, 2017 05:57:38 pm
      Not good enough and should be captaining his hometown team in the Championship!
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5182: Sep 17, 2017 12:03:45 pm
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuA9sJ6DFL8

      Anyone else feel Rodgers and Klopp may have made a mistake by playing Hendo as a #6? I could never understand why he was dropped into the deeper role, especially after that exceptional 13/14 season as a box-boxer. I actually think he could have offered just as much as Lallana in that aggressive high pressing role.

      Surely, if it's not Lallana in that role it should be Hendo? If not Lallana or Hendo, it should be Ox, right?

      Dadorious
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5183: Sep 17, 2017 01:28:24 pm
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuA9sJ6DFL8

      Anyone else feel Rodgers and Klopp may have made a mistake by playing Hendo as a #6? I could never understand why he was dropped into the deeper role, especially after that exceptional 13/14 season as a box-boxer. I actually think he could have offered just as much as Lallana in that aggressive high pressing role.

      Surely, if it's not Lallana in that role it should be Hendo? If not Lallana or Hendo, it should be Ox, right?



      I think he's injury has had a massive impact on his mobility and he can no longer play the box to box.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5184: Sep 17, 2017 01:42:24 pm
      I think he's injury has had a massive impact on his mobility and he can no longer play the box to box.

      I beg to differ, lack mobility isn't his problem (don't even think the injury had much affect on his mobility?) from what I have seen, and he is still only 27 and fit as a fiddle.
      Danzel
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5185: Sep 17, 2017 05:34:04 pm
      Anyone else feel Rodgers and Klopp may have made a mistake by playing Hendo as a #6? I could never understand why he was dropped into the deeper role, especially after that exceptional 13/14 season as a box-boxer. I actually think he could have offered just as much as Lallana in that aggressive high pressing role.

      Surely, if it's not Lallana in that role it should be Hendo? If not Lallana or Hendo, it should be Ox, right?

      Henderson being our #6 isn't the problem I think. His numbers / statistics speak volumes, he does well in that position. He might have a dip in form at the moment, but generally he has done well there. It's the players in front of him, mainly Can, that are the issue at the moment.



      Credit to BabuYagu, JCB & RM on RAWK.

      These are some running numbers from the game against Arsenal (where we did well) but they translate to what we are seeing in other games too: Can doesn't run as much. Either he is carrying the same injury that limited him in his play last season or he just doesn't want to put in the effort. In our system and certainly in our midfield and the way we press and cut off the passing lanes, this is a major issue.

      If you look at some of the goals we conceded (Watford 2nd goal, City 1st goal, Sevilla 1st and 2nd goal, Burnley 1st goal) What they all have in common, is Can being too high up the pitch, not covering for Henderson and not tracking the runners. Is it maybe possible that Henderson recognizes the problem and is committing too much to covering for Can on the right side of the pitch, where we seem to concede most our goals from? We do see him vacating his #6 position more often than last season and the season before that. Is it maybe possible that without Lallana who is the trigger for our press, Henderson is being instructed to lead the press a little more because Can isn't able to? Might be an explanation for why we see Henderson higher up the pitch / "out of position" and why our midfield doesn't seem to offer the protection it did last season.

      Biggest problem is obviously missing Lallana and Alex not yet being up to speed with the tactics. Both have that willingness to run, to track players and they have a lot more pace than Can to do it. I think our overall play and our protection of the back four will improve significantly when Lallana returns.

      I can see where you're coming from with Henderson being a box-to-box player. He could play that position for other teams as a box-to-box, but not in our system. He has the same limitations as Can in that position. If you look at Wijnaldum, Lallana and now Coutinho who will be playing there, what do they have that Henderson doesn't? The ability to play with their backs towards the opposition goal, beating a man on the turn and running with the ball at their feet at pace. Imagine Henderson playing there and Matip playing a pass forward through the opposition lines. What do you think Henderson will do in that situation? I think he either passes back or sideways. He can't turn quickly enough to face the opposition goal, he doesn't have the technical ability to do so.
      TheleftpegofRayKennedy
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5186: Sep 17, 2017 07:00:01 pm
      Henderson being our #6 isn't the problem I think. His numbers / statistics speak volumes, he does well in that position. He might have a dip in form at the moment, but generally he has done well there. It's the players in front of him, mainly Can, that are the issue at the moment.



      Credit to BabuYagu, JCB & RM on RAWK.

      These are some running numbers from the game against Arsenal (where we did well) but they translate to what we are seeing in other games too: Can doesn't run as much. Either he is carrying the same injury that limited him in his play last season or he just doesn't want to put in the effort. In our system and certainly in our midfield and the way we press and cut off the passing lanes, this is a major issue.

      If you look at some of the goals we conceded (Watford 2nd goal, City 1st goal, Sevilla 1st and 2nd goal, Burnley 1st goal) What they all have in common, is Can being too high up the pitch, not covering for Henderson and not tracking the runners. Is it maybe possible that Henderson recognizes the problem and is committing too much to covering for Can on the right side of the pitch, where we seem to concede most our goals from? We do see him vacating his #6 position more often than last season and the season before that. Is it maybe possible that without Lallana who is the trigger for our press, Henderson is being instructed to lead the press a little more because Can isn't able to? Might be an explanation for why we see Henderson higher up the pitch / "out of position" and why our midfield doesn't seem to offer the protection it did last season.

      Biggest problem is obviously missing Lallana and Alex not yet being up to speed with the tactics. Both have that willingness to run, to track players and they have a lot more pace than Can to do it. I think our overall play and our protection of the back four will improve significantly when Lallana returns.

      I can see where you're coming from with Henderson being a box-to-box player. He could play that position for other teams as a box-to-box, but not in our system. He has the same limitations as Can in that position. If you look at Wijnaldum, Lallana and now Coutinho who will be playing there, what do they have that Henderson doesn't? The ability to play with their backs towards the opposition goal, beating a man on the turn and running with the ball at their feet at pace. Imagine Henderson playing there and Matip playing a pass forward through the opposition lines. What do you think Henderson will do in that situation? I think he either passes back or sideways. He can't turn quickly enough to face the opposition goal, he doesn't have the technical ability to do so.

      Interesting post mate, well made.

      I think the sooner we stop thinking we play a DM the better.  We don't, but I think we should.
       
      Freeing Hendo and Can (or anyone else) from the 'sitting' DM role helps our attacks, but means we get caught out by a long, quick pass out from a team we're pressing.  And our full back play exposes the CBs. It's high-risk, high-reward football, but as Hansen used to say, you have to play the percentages.  We'll always get caught out sooner or later, and more often than not its against the traditional bus-parking sides who play a sprinter or target man and try to hit him early and counter. 

      We need a DM.  If we play one, I think we'll see our defence improve.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5187: Sep 18, 2017 12:20:31 am
      Henderson being our #6 isn't the problem I think. His numbers / statistics speak volumes, he does well in that position. He might have a dip in form at the moment, but generally he has done well there. It's the players in front of him, mainly Can, that are the issue at the moment.



      Credit to BabuYagu, JCB & RM on RAWK.

      These are some running numbers from the game against Arsenal (where we did well) but they translate to what we are seeing in other games too: Can doesn't run as much. Either he is carrying the same injury that limited him in his play last season or he just doesn't want to put in the effort. In our system and certainly in our midfield and the way we press and cut off the passing lanes, this is a major issue.

      Well, stats clearly show his mobility is alright, but we all knew this, didn't we? So why doesn't Klopp  consider him for the Lallana role? not so much a #10, but more a #8 (like how he played 13/14 season) and the main pressing trigger that we sorely miss when Lallana is out.

      If you look at some of the goals we conceded (Watford 2nd goal, City 1st goal, Sevilla 1st and 2nd goal, Burnley 1st goal) What they all have in common, is Can being too high up the pitch, not covering for Henderson and not tracking the runners. Is it maybe possible that Henderson recognizes the problem and is committing too much to covering for Can on the right side of the pitch, where we seem to concede most our goals from? We do see him vacating his #6 position more often than last season and the season before that. Is it maybe possible that without Lallana who is the trigger for our press, Henderson is being instructed to lead the press a little more because Can isn't able to? Might be an explanation for why we see Henderson higher up the pitch / "out of position" and why our midfield doesn't seem to offer the protection it did last season.

      Yes, similarly to what I mentioned about Hendo having to cover more for Wijnaldum or Can (more so Can as you have mentioned) because of their lack of pressing/support, but again, this goes back to his running stats, and in comparison to Wijnaldum and Can, questions have to be raised, why him in the #6 role when he is just as good, if not better than Lallana when pressing and we don't, as mentioned by many, play a proper DM or DLPM, so why not Can or Wijnaldum there?

      Would we see a more functional midfield with Can (#6), Wijnaldum (#8) and Hendo (#8)? Would there be less cover/press support for our #8's from the #6 which would then allow him to be more of a shield for our defenders? Whether people think it's a DM, DLPM or whatever, the #6 role is still more the defensive role of the midfield.
       
      I can see where you're coming from with Henderson being a box-to-box player. He could play that position for other teams as a box-to-box, but not in our system. He has the same limitations as Can in that position. If you look at Wijnaldum, Lallana and now Coutinho who will be playing there, what do they have that Henderson doesn't? The ability to play with their backs towards the opposition goal, beating a man on the turn and running with the ball at their feet at pace. Imagine Henderson playing there and Matip playing a pass forward through the opposition lines. What do you think Henderson will do in that situation? I think he either passes back or sideways. He can't turn quickly enough to face the opposition goal, he doesn't have the technical ability to do so.

      As for the box-box role, I believe he can play in that role for us still. It's not about him not having the technical ability to play in tight spaces because that won't be his role, it'll mainly be Coutinho/Lallana or Firmino's, but my thinking is more him as a #8 than #10, pretty much similar to how he played under Rodgers in the 13/14 season where he was possibly the best #8 in the league(or am i being biased? ;D).

      Anyway, this is just the defensive aspect, isn't it? How about the distribution part? rofl. I don't really want to get into it, it just stresses me out when i think how poor our midfielders are without Coutinho!!!!
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5188: Sep 18, 2017 12:28:55 am
      Well, stats clearly show his mobility is alright, but we all knew this, didn't we? So why doesn't Klopp  consider him for the Lallana role? not so much a #10, but more a #8 (like how he played 13/14 season) and the main pressing trigger that we sorely miss when Lallana is out.

      Yes, similarly to what I mentioned about Hendo having to cover more for Wijnaldum or Can (more so Can as you have mentioned) because of their lack of pressing/support, but again, this goes back to his running stats, and in comparison to Wijnaldum and Can, questions have to be raised, why him in the #6 role when he is just as good, if not better than Lallana when pressing and we don't, as mentioned by many, play a proper DM or DLPM, so why not Can or Wijnaldum there?

      Would we see a more functional midfield with Can (#6), Wijnaldum (#8) and Hendo (#8)? Would there be less cover/press support for our #8's from the #6 which would then allow him to be more of a shield for our defenders? Whether people think it's a DM, DLPM or whatever, the #6 role is still more the defensive role of the midfield.
       
      As for the box-box role, I believe he can play in that role for us still. It's not about him not having the technical ability to play in tight spaces because that won't be his role, it'll mainly be Coutinho/Lallana or Firmino's, but my thinking is more him as a #8 than #10, pretty much similar to how he played under Rodgers in the 13/14 season where he was possibly the best #8 in the league(or am i being biased? ;D).

      Anyway, this is just the defensive aspect, isn't it? How about the distribution part? rofl. I don't really want to get into it, it just stresses me out when i think how poor our midfielders are without Coutinho!!!!


      Good points mate and I preferred Henderson as a #8 because he was that pressing trigger and he would still cover back. As a #6 I don't think he has nearly enough tactical intelligence to understand the threats that develop around him. This can be highlighted in any game where he goes ghosting by a midfielder trying to nick the ball.

      Great if that comes off, but when it doesn't he's exposing us so badly, as an 8 that's not nearly the risk it is as a 6 and I've always thought that he isn't defensively strong enough to make the role his own. A team that is as strong as ours in attack can surely afford the luxury/security of a defensive minded DLPM and I honestly think that will be the next development in our approach. Once we have Keita then the pressure on those front lads will be lessened considerably and I believe he will help out at the back much more than the likes of Gini/Can, just that move will make such an enormous change to our midfield dynamic that we wont recognise it. From there I think we can bring in a Mascherano type who basically just gives it to the other lads and says get on with it. That's what I hope anyway because a proper DM would solve so many of our problems imo.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5189: Sep 18, 2017 01:01:01 am
      Good points mate and I preferred Henderson as a #8 because he was that pressing trigger and he would still cover back. As a #6 I don't think he has nearly enough tactical intelligence to understand the threats that develop around him. This can be highlighted in any game where he goes ghosting by a midfielder trying to nick the ball.

      Great if that comes off, but when it doesn't he's exposing us so badly, as an 8 that's not nearly the risk it is as a 6 and I've always thought that he isn't defensively strong enough to make the role his own. A team that is as strong as ours in attack can surely afford the luxury/security of a defensive minded DLPM and I honestly think that will be the next development in our approach. Once we have Keita then the pressure on those front lads will be lessened considerably and I believe he will help out at the back much more than the likes of Gini/Can, just that move will make such an enormous change to our midfield dynamic that we wont recognise it. From there I think we can bring in a Mascherano type who basically just gives it to the other lads and says get on with it. That's what I hope anyway because a proper DM would solve so many of our problems imo.

      I forgot to highlight the tactical intelligence from deep, thanks for pointing that out. I agree, he goes for the press more often than standing off and being patient because that is his natural instinct, isn't it? to harry/press and nick. And whilst that is not a problem in his game, it is if he is playing the deeper defensive role.

      Again, go back to how Lucas patrolled that midfield last season and the season before under Klopp, he doesn't have the mind set of a box-boxer and more often than not, knows when not to leave his area vacated.

      And I agree, I think a DLPM or DM would work wonders, and my preference would be a DLPM , because as you mentioned, our attack is so strong, and with our high pressing (especially if we play Keita and Lallana/Hendo), we pretty much defend from the front, so more often than not, we'll have the opposition pinned back, so wouldn't a midfielder from deep dictating and creating be ideal for this scenario?
      I wouldn't mind Coutinho doing this too, as he loves to drop deep and play those through balls, and IF he does stay next season, I see the DM more complimentary to his play style than a DLPM

      Beerbelly
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5190: Sep 18, 2017 07:02:21 am
      Henderson being our #6 isn't the problem I think. His numbers / statistics speak volumes, he does well in that position. He might have a dip in form at the moment, but generally he has done well there. It's the players in front of him, mainly Can, that are the issue at the moment.



      Credit to BabuYagu, JCB & RM on RAWK.

      These are some running numbers from the game against Arsenal (where we did well) but they translate to what we are seeing in other games too: Can doesn't run as much. Either he is carrying the same injury that limited him in his play last season or he just doesn't want to put in the effort. In our system and certainly in our midfield and the way we press and cut off the passing lanes, this is a major issue.

      If you look at some of the goals we conceded (Watford 2nd goal, City 1st goal, Sevilla 1st and 2nd goal, Burnley 1st goal) What they all have in common, is Can being too high up the pitch, not covering for Henderson and not tracking the runners. Is it maybe possible that Henderson recognizes the problem and is committing too much to covering for Can on the right side of the pitch, where we seem to concede most our goals from? We do see him vacating his #6 position more often than last season and the season before that. Is it maybe possible that without Lallana who is the trigger for our press, Henderson is being instructed to lead the press a little more because Can isn't able to? Might be an explanation for why we see Henderson higher up the pitch / "out of position" and why our midfield doesn't seem to offer the protection it did last season.

      Biggest problem is obviously missing Lallana and Alex not yet being up to speed with the tactics. Both have that willingness to run, to track players and they have a lot more pace than Can to do it. I think our overall play and our protection of the back four will improve significantly when Lallana returns.

      I can see where you're coming from with Henderson being a box-to-box player. He could play that position for other teams as a box-to-box, but not in our system. He has the same limitations as Can in that position. If you look at Wijnaldum, Lallana and now Coutinho who will be playing there, what do they have that Henderson doesn't? The ability to play with their backs towards the opposition goal, beating a man on the turn and running with the ball at their feet at pace. Imagine Henderson playing there and Matip playing a pass forward through the opposition lines. What do you think Henderson will do in that situation? I think he either passes back or sideways. He can't turn quickly enough to face the opposition goal, he doesn't have the technical ability to do so.

      Those stats don't tell a great deal other than 'he runs around a lot' and is no slouch when It comes to The Running Man. For example, he may not need to rack up all those numbers in running if his positional sense and awareness to discipline was better. It also may mean that being the deepest midfielder without much protection he's naturally got to cover more ground, pointing to a flawed system. Or it may not mean any of the above.

      People should air on the side of caution with stats because they only paint half the picture.

      I don't rate Henderson that much as a player. However, I do think he has been hard done by, caused by the system Klopp implements.

      He's equivalent to Mignolet, in that a team can carry a player when too many questions aren't being asked of it. For example, when (iirc) we had Coutinho and Lallana in midfield, or Lallana and Gini in midfield we were able to boss, and dominate games by putting our opposition onto the back foot. Henderson could just sweep up behind them most of the time.

      When team's counter us with a ball over the press, or dominate us through the middle we start to look more vulnerable. I said it last season with Lallana, Gini or Coutinho in midfield that the system only leaves ONE genuine central midfielder in the team. He really needs a partner, like Mascha, Didi, Alonso etc. to help him out in the engine room. It will help our defence out to obviously.

      Okay, this season he has had Can and Gini most of the time in the side - both more orthodox central midfielders. But both play ahead of him and neither are rigid in their defensive abilities. All that fluffy talk of fluidity, interchanging and roaming, sees them lose that defensive shape and discipline in midfield. Again, the system isn't disciplined instead the emphasis is on individual decision making, when to roam, flow and support the attack.

      FWiW, I don't see Henderson either as a #8. He is a limited player which is why I think moving him to the #6 role suited him. After seeing Lallana, Coutinho, Gini there, and having AOC there moving Henderson is a none starter, all those players are much better than Henderson. The only thing going for him pretty much is his running ability, those fellas, can pass in tight areas without treating the ball like a hot potato, they will more often than not be progressive in their passing and take chances, they have better movement and dribbling ability along with vision, and to top it off they can score goals and they do all this better than Henderson IMHO.

      IMO he's either got to make it as a #6 here, but he could do with support in that role or pack his bags like Huyton says and move back to Sunderland.
      Danzel
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5191: Sep 18, 2017 05:16:37 pm
      Those stats don't tell a great deal other than 'he runs around a lot' and is no slouch when It comes to The Running Man. For example, he may not need to rack up all those numbers in running if his positional sense and awareness to discipline was better. It also may mean that being the deepest midfielder without much protection he's naturally got to cover more ground, pointing to a flawed system. Or it may not mean any of the above.

      People should air on the side of caution with stats because they only paint half the picture.

      I don't rate Henderson that much as a player. However, I do think he has been hard done by, caused by the system Klopp implements.

      He's equivalent to Mignolet, in that a team can carry a player when too many questions aren't being asked of it. For example, when (iirc) we had Coutinho and Lallana in midfield, or Lallana and Gini in midfield we were able to boss, and dominate games by putting our opposition onto the back foot. Henderson could just sweep up behind them most of the time.

      When team's counter us with a ball over the press, or dominate us through the middle we start to look more vulnerable. I said it last season with Lallana, Gini or Coutinho in midfield that the system only leaves ONE genuine central midfielder in the team. He really needs a partner, like Mascha, Didi, Alonso etc. to help him out in the engine room. It will help our defence out to obviously.

      Okay, this season he has had Can and Gini most of the time in the side - both more orthodox central midfielders. But both play ahead of him and neither are rigid in their defensive abilities. All that fluffy talk of fluidity, interchanging and roaming, sees them lose that defensive shape and discipline in midfield. Again, the system isn't disciplined instead the emphasis is on individual decision making, when to roam, flow and support the attack.

      FWiW, I don't see Henderson either as a #8. He is a limited player which is why I think moving him to the #6 role suited him. After seeing Lallana, Coutinho, Gini there, and having AOC there moving Henderson is a none starter, all those players are much better than Henderson. The only thing going for him pretty much is his running ability, those fellas, can pass in tight areas without treating the ball like a hot potato, they will more often than not be progressive in their passing and take chances, they have better movement and dribbling ability along with vision, and to top it off they can score goals and they do all this better than Henderson IMHO.

      IMO he's either got to make it as a #6 here, but he could do with support in that role or pack his bags like Huyton says and move back to Sunderland.

      In hindsight I probably should have posted my post in the Emre Can Player Thread. The running stats weren't meant to confirm that Henderson is a good #6 or that he can run a lot, we all know that. They were more to show that Can isn't running as much as the other midfielders, leaving holes in our midfield because he's either out of position or not tracking the runners. He's a liability in that midfield. Henderson may be trying to correct that, which might explain why he's running significantly more and why he's out of position more than he used to be last season. The numbers / statistics I mentioned in the first sentence of my post, we're more about the interceptions, tackles won, passing rates, ... I should have made myself more clear there.

      I don't rate Henderson that highly either (he's a decent player, but not a top player) and as you rightly say, we can 'carry' him when we're bossing games with a midfield of Wijnaldum and Lallana for example, just like we did the first few months of last season. He's only job then is to clean up the clearances by the opposition and keep the game ticking over while the rest dominate the game and keep the play in the opposition half. He did that really well last season. I think he's trying to do too much at this time, with Lallana being out he's forced to play a lot more balls forward and his passing has been off since preseason. It just makes him look worse.

      I don't really think he needs help. He can cover that area alone. We do look a bit 'exposed' at times when teams do beat the press, but how many goals have we conceded directly because teams broke through our press? Or on the counterattack? In my opinion that's one of the things our #6 and defence actually do really well, keeping teams out of our box when they do beat the press.

      I think when Lallana comes back or when Keita comes in next season with Henderson still our #6, we'll look a lot better again. For me, the perfect player for our #6 would be a player with Henderon's physical ability (preferably a better header of the ball though) and with Alonso's brain.

      Fully agree with the last part of your post too, I've been saying the same. He's never a starter in the #8 position for me, not with us.
      Danzel
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5192: Sep 18, 2017 05:38:40 pm
      Good points mate and I preferred Henderson as a #8 because he was that pressing trigger and he would still cover back. As a #6 I don't think he has nearly enough tactical intelligence to understand the threats that develop around him. This can be highlighted in any game where he goes ghosting by a midfielder trying to nick the ball.

      Great if that comes off, but when it doesn't he's exposing us so badly, as an 8 that's not nearly the risk it is as a 6 and I've always thought that he isn't defensively strong enough to make the role his own. A team that is as strong as ours in attack can surely afford the luxury/security of a defensive minded DLPM and I honestly think that will be the next development in our approach. Once we have Keita then the pressure on those front lads will be lessened considerably and I believe he will help out at the back much more than the likes of Gini/Can, just that move will make such an enormous change to our midfield dynamic that we wont recognise it. From there I think we can bring in a Mascherano type who basically just gives it to the other lads and says get on with it. That's what I hope anyway because a proper DM would solve so many of our problems imo.

      In my opinion, in terms of ability, Coutinho, Wijnaldum, Lallana and Alex are all ahead of Henderson as #8's. Now given the current situation, Lallana injured, Alex not ready, Coutinho still rusty and Wijnaldum already playing as one of the #8's, that leaves us with Henderson and Can. If we do play Henderson as the #8, who plays the #6? Can? Do we trust Can enough in that position or does he have the necessary tactical intelligence to play there? Henderson might possibly be a better #8 than Can, but is Can a better #6 than Henderson at this point? It then just comes down to where do we put the 'liability' in midfield: the #6 or the #8. I prefer Henderson over Can as the #6. I also think that in and around the box, composure and shooting ability, Can is better than Henderson, while Henderson is probably the one able to cover more ground and offer more defensive support. So a bit of a toss up between who's the better #8, though Henderson might be the one in our system perhaps.

      While Henderson might indeed not have the tactical intelligence for that position compared to say a Alonso or Mascherano, I still think he's a level above Can in that department. I said it in the post above this one, for me a perfect #6 for us is someone with Henderson's physical ability and with Alonso's brain / passing ability. (Weigl at Dortmund would be an absolute dream.)

      (Think I made a bit of a mess of my points there, hope you see my point, haha)

      I think in this situation it's still Klopp trying to make the best with what he has at his disposal before bringing in other players for the #6 and #8 positions, which he clearly is planning to do, given with how many midfielders we've been linked and Keita coming in next season and I agree with PurpleMonkey and you, that it will make a massive difference to the midfield dynamic and the protection of the back four.

      « Last Edit: Sep 18, 2017 05:59:39 pm by Danzel »
      Munch101
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5193: Sep 19, 2017 03:38:24 pm
      In my opinion, in terms of ability, Coutinho, Wijnaldum, Lallana and Alex are all ahead of Henderson as #8's. Now given the current situation, Lallana injured, Alex not ready, Coutinho still rusty and Wijnaldum already playing as one of the #8's, that leaves us with Henderson and Can. If we do play Henderson as the #8, who plays the #6? Can? Do we trust Can enough in that position or does he have the necessary tactical intelligence to play there? Henderson might possibly be a better #8 than Can, but is Can a better #6 than Henderson at this point? It then just comes down to where do we put the 'liability' in midfield: the #6 or the #8. I prefer Henderson over Can as the #6. I also think that in and around the box, composure and shooting ability, Can is better than Henderson, while Henderson is probably the one able to cover more ground and offer more defensive support. So a bit of a toss up between who's the better #8, though Henderson might be the one in our system perhaps.

      While Henderson might indeed not have the tactical intelligence for that position compared to say a Alonso or Mascherano, I still think he's a level above Can in that department. I said it in the post above this one, for me a perfect #6 for us is someone with Henderson's physical ability and with Alonso's brain / passing ability. (Weigl at Dortmund would be an absolute dream.)

      (Think I made a bit of a mess of my points there, hope you see my point, haha)

      I think in this situation it's still Klopp trying to make the best with what he has at his disposal before bringing in other players for the #6 and #8 positions, which he clearly is planning to do, given with how many midfielders we've been linked and Keita coming in next season and I agree with PurpleMonkey and you, that it will make a massive difference to the midfield dynamic and the protection of the back four.

      I may be reading it wrong but Keita will definitely be a number 8. Just because he is black and African he is not any way shape or form comparable to Kante (apart from he runs a lot). Yes he wins the ball a lot but so do Firmino and Lallana.
      He is more of a Modric type midfielder.

      If we signed someone like Mascherano or Gary Medel we would be a force. Our defence would look better and our attackers would look better for it.
      Danzel
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5194: Sep 19, 2017 03:52:03 pm
      I may be reading it wrong but Keita will definitely be a number 8. Just because he is black and African he is not any way shape or form comparable to Kante (apart from he runs a lot). Yes he wins the ball a lot but so do Firmino and Lallana.
      He is more of a Modric type midfielder.

      If we signed someone like Mascherano or Gary Medel we would be a force. Our defence would look better and our attackers would look better for it.

      You did read it wrong mate, I should have explained myself a bit better probably. Keita for me is a #8 too.

      Quote
      ...before bringing in other players for the #6 and #8 positions, which he clearly is planning to do, given with how many midfielders we've been linked and Keita coming in next season and I agree with PurpleMonkey and you, that it will make a massive difference to the midfield dynamic and the protection of the back four...

      What I meant is I think he'll be looking to bring in players for both (#6 and #8) positions and I gave Keita as an example, but for me he's clearly a #8 as he plays a more advanced role in the RB Leipzig setup. I've never compared him to Kante. Having him as a #8 will change the dynamic of our midfield and the protection of the back four, he doesn't need to play in the #6 to help out with that.

      That would leave us (assuming Coutinho leaves) with Keita, Wijnaldum, Lallana and Alex as first team options for the two #8 spots, all are perfect players for the system Klopp wants us to play. Still lacking a #6 there though, unless Klopp thinks that Keita can do a job there though if needed (which he probably can).
      Munch101
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5195: Sep 19, 2017 04:48:00 pm
      You did read it wrong mate, I should have explained myself a bit better probably. Keita for me is a #8 too.

      What I meant is I think he'll be looking to bring in players for both (#6 and #8) positions and I gave Keita as an example, but for me he's clearly a #8 as he plays a more advanced role in the RB Leipzig setup. I've never compared him to Kante. Having him as a #8 will change the dynamic of our midfield and the protection of the back four, he doesn't need to play in the #6 to help out with that.

      That would leave us (assuming Coutinho leaves) with Keita, Wijnaldum, Lallana and Alex as first team options for the two #8 spots, all are perfect players for the system Klopp wants us to play. Still lacking a #6 there though, unless Klopp thinks that Keita can do a job there though if needed (which he probably can).

      I think we won't ever have a proper number 6 to smash tackles and do the dirty work, I think at best we'll get a ball player to get us started and that's why Klopp has hendo there at the mo, he's the best at releasing the ball.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5196: Sep 19, 2017 05:00:54 pm
      In my opinion, in terms of ability, Coutinho, Wijnaldum, Lallana and Alex are all ahead of Henderson as #8's. Now given the current situation, Lallana injured, Alex not ready, Coutinho still rusty and Wijnaldum already playing as one of the #8's, that leaves us with Henderson and Can. If we do play Henderson as the #8, who plays the #6? Can? Do we trust Can enough in that position or does he have the necessary tactical intelligence to play there? Henderson might possibly be a better #8 than Can, but is Can a better #6 than Henderson at this point? It then just comes down to where do we put the 'liability' in midfield: the #6 or the #8. I prefer Henderson over Can as the #6. I also think that in and around the box, composure and shooting ability, Can is better than Henderson, while Henderson is probably the one able to cover more ground and offer more defensive support. So a bit of a toss up between who's the better #8, though Henderson might be the one in our system perhaps.

      While Henderson might indeed not have the tactical intelligence for that position compared to say a Alonso or Mascherano, I still think he's a level above Can in that department. I said it in the post above this one, for me a perfect #6 for us is someone with Henderson's physical ability and with Alonso's brain / passing ability. (Weigl at Dortmund would be an absolute dream.)

      (Think I made a bit of a mess of my points there, hope you see my point, haha)

      I think in this situation it's still Klopp trying to make the best with what he has at his disposal before bringing in other players for the #6 and #8 positions, which he clearly is planning to do, given with how many midfielders we've been linked and Keita coming in next season and I agree with PurpleMonkey and you, that it will make a massive difference to the midfield dynamic and the protection of the back four.



      Only just seen this post today mate and I totally understand what you mean by that and the placing of our lowest liability in the #6 role. I agree, while I don't rate Henderson enough to say he's a permanent in the #6 role, now that Lucas has gone, I don't think we have anyone better. Can, as you say again, is too unreliable to play there, while Henderson may have lapses in judgement and poor tactical intelligence he does always put the effort in and he does always mean to do well for the team. I say this because I think Can is a bit of a 'me' player, likes to look good, likes to make it appear like he's done more than is actually the case, with Henderson he's happy to support the team and if anything I'd prefer he grabbed much more responsibility than pass it on.

      As for Weigl, discussed him a few times on here suggesting he'd be a great fit for us. I don't think his defensive qualities are brilliant (certainly an upgrade on what we have though) but in terms of play making and setting the tempo he'd be brilliant. Alongside 2 #8s that offer protection too, such as Keita and Lallana I think that midfield would have unbelievable potential and fantastic balance.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Jordan Henderson Player Thread
      Reply #5197: Sep 19, 2017 09:41:44 pm
      Can't wait to hear about how this loss was his fault too.

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